One of the major controversies regarding Endtime Bible prophecy concerns when Jesus will return to ?rapture? all those who have received Him as their Savior. Will it be before or after the coming three-and-a-half-year period of worldwide trouble known as the ?Great Tribulation??
The term ?Rapture? is not found in English-language Bibles, but made its way into Christian terminology as a transliteration of rapiemur (from rapio, or raptio), the Latin word used by Saint Jerome in his Latin Vulgate translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which describes how the saved from all ages, both dead and living, will be ?caught up? to meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming.
Joseph and Johnny discuss why so many Christians believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and why it can be dangerous.
Listen now (27:30m):
Bible verses used in the podcast:
Revelation 4:1, 2; 1. Thessalonians 5:2-5; 2. Thessalonians 2:1, 3, 4; Revelation 13:7; Daniel 7:21, 8:24; 11:32-35; Revelation 14:6-16; 7:9, 10, 13-15; 10:7; 1. Corinthians 15:51, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17; Matthew 24:29-31; 40-47; Romans 2:28, 29; Galatians 3:28, 29;
Thankfully this matter is going to be decided for us. 🙂
Until then I’m going to make each day count, keeping in mind that ‘my rapture’ can come any day.
One other thought: for us, who believe in a post tribulation rapture being wrong would be a pleasant surprise, not so sure about the other way around…
Thea… I’m not exactly sure if you believe pre-trib or post-trib. The Antichrist will rule the world for Jerusalem and “AFTER” that JESUS will come to gather the saints and take them with him. This period of time is a total of 7 years. The Antichrist will deceive the masses of people and the whole world will follow the Beast. The Rapture and the Second Coming is the “same event”. The church (the Christians) are not appointed to wrath, (the Wrath of GOD). There are if you will check out Revelation, 3 sets of judgments. The Seals, the Trumpets and the Bowls. The Seal and Trumpet Judgments are the Wrath of Satan and the church will be here for those 14 judgments. At the end of the Trumpet Judgments (the 7th Trumpet blown by an Angel) will usher in JESUS. At that time he will take the saved people from the graves who were dead in their graves and the saved people who were still alive on the earth up in the clouds with him. That is when our moral bodies will change. The bodies we have are not suitable for the Kingdom of GOD. It is a spiritual Kingdom…After the church (the dead and the alive that were saved) have left the earth, THEN the last 7 judgments are to be poured out on the earth on the unsaved souls, the unrepentant sinners, all of those who were sexually immoral and who did not believe and had taken the Mark of the Beast (the 666). They will suffer the last 7 judgments which is (The Wrath of GOD). So the church is NOT appointed to the wrath of GOD, but we will certainly suffer through the wrath of Satan. He hates Christians and he will punish them as long as he can until the LORD JESUS comes and takes them home with him. Hopefully in simple terms this will explain something. Blessings…
Lex, you are not stupid, you are just deceived. Scofield (who was a Freemason) popularized this pre-trib idea right around the time when evolution was unleashed as a major onslaught on the Bible and on Christian faith, obviously from the same source, by the same inspiration.
?Check out Chuck Missler?. I did. He says a lot of good things, but he is wrong on pre-trib. How about checking out the Bible?
Jesus could not have said it any clearer: Immediately after the tribulation of those days ?shall appear the sign of the Son of man ?and ..shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mt 24:29-31
If you still have some doubts you could also check out II. Th. 2: 1-3. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
It is clear that Christians will see and coexist with the son of perdition, the antichrist. Now if you say the falling away (which is apostasy in the original text) is the rapture, than you could torture any scripture till they confess to what you want to hear. If you want to live in denial and set yourself up as a sitting duck, be my guest.
You have not check out the podcasts, have you? All of those same old points are answered there.
Yes you?re right, pretty old stuff, about 2000 years old. I know? they shouldn?t be in the Bible. They really mess up this pre-trib argument. How inconvenient.
I apologize Lex, I shouldn’t be sarcastic, it is not nice. Let me explain briefly why I think this pre-trib idea is so dangerous.
I recently attended a Bible class where the preacher started out saying that God can not deny Himself and all his promises will be fulfilled. Fair enough.
He then said, if God would not fulfill his promises we could turn our backs on Him. He continued from there saying that there is only one major end time event left to be fulfilled: the rapture of the saints, which could happen any moment now because the antichrist is ready to soon take over this world.
Now, just in case the pre-trib rapture would not happen, and we find ourselves in the middle of the great tribulation, can you see how millions of Christian would get “offended” As Jesus told us in Mt 24: 9 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.” These are the people that have been deceived and were not ready for these trying times.
Did you know that after world war 2 many of the churches in Western Europe emptied out and most people never returned because many preachers believed the time of the end has come and preached that the rapture was at hand. It of course didn’t happen and people got disillusioned with Christianity thinking that the Bible was not true.
Let’s not muscle each other trying to force our views. I quoted the Bible on the subject, you think differently, you said it once, twice, this isn’t going anywhere. Just try to leave yourself open to the sovereign will of God, and if the rapture doesn’t work out the way you expected it, don’t throw your faith away. There will be difficult and trying times as we know from Daniel: “And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.” We will need all our faith and some.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV2txxxdVEQ&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.sermonaudio.com/go/51507
Total misinterpretation of the scriptures. The above podcast says it all (well most of it), so I won’t repeat it here.
Misrepresentation? Hahh right back at you. Just let people compare them, don’t try to manipulate anyone.
This is mainstream stuff. The Internet is flooded with it that is why so many people are deceived by it.
“But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.” – 1. Thessalonians 5:4
Yes I’m just stupid and deceived you are the enlightened wise one, right.
Sorry, but the pre-tribulation secret Rapture is false & many Christians are deceived by it. So all I’m doing is giving the Post Tribulation verses, & explaining the difference between pre-trib & post trib rapture! Even your link is manipulative about the Pre-trib rapture, but I don’t have a problem with that! We all have the right & freedom to share our views on Bible Prophecy. I respect people’s rights to share what they believe & sometimes it involves debate or differences of opinion.
No, what you know about the pre-trib rapture is wrong. For starters it’s not secret. Heard about Project Blue Beam? From a conspiracy POV that is completely useless if the rapture is post-trib. Obviously that’s not the only reason for it.
The thing I posted is not manipulative but telling that it’s a total misinterpretation is just manipulative. I can say the same thing, the podcasts on the other hand are not just lame attacks from ‘the deceived people’, but hey if you want to get purified and suffer because you think Jesus’ sacrifice was not enough be my guest.
You might also want to check out Chuck Missler as well, but I think you’ve already decided to commit yourself to that viewpoint..
I disagree Joseph Rev 3:10- the tribulation is to try them that are upon the earth why would God try the Church? 2. God doesn’t need the Church here to witness- are you saying the church is the 144,000 sealed virgin Jews 12,000 from each tribe preaching the everlasting Gospel? I don’t think so no real Christian who knows the WORD OF GOD believes what you claim about the Church going through the tribulation then being disappointed to the point it overthrows our faith (the great falling away) so from this you believe it’s possible for a saved child of God to loose his salvation? If so this is wrong also there are too many scriptures to list on eternal salvation the only life God can give to the born again, as for the “saints” mentioned after revelation 4 on the earth those are they that WILL BE SAVED DURING THE TRIBULATION. Please see I Thessalonians 5:9 the church will be at the judgment seat of Christ then the marriage supper of the Lamb during the 7 year tribulation here on earth Jesus is coming for His saints and then with His saints to judge this world. I believe a lot of what you say is right but I do disagree with the Church going through the tribulation and it’s not as you stated because “they don’t wont to deal with it and don’t wont to study end time prophecy” that is a blanket statement and is not true I’m personally on my 17th trip through my Authorized King James Bible I didn’t get my doctrine from Scofield or anyone else I have the greatest teacher in the universe living in me The Holy Ghost of God who teaches and guides in all truth, I appreciate your studies but again I do not and cannot agree, Again after revelation 4 when John is called up hither you never read of the Church being on the earth again until she’s coming back with Jesus in Rev 19 on white horses in fine clean linen, Sir the last time I read the Church IS NOT GOING DOWN AS YOU DESCRIBE IN THIS VIDEO -SHE’S GOING UP ! AMEN 1 THESSALONIANS 4:15-18 AGAIN PLEASE READ I THESSALONIANS 1:10 THE PAUL EVEN REPEATS IT AGAIN IN I THESSALONIANS 5:9 THIS IS PAULS RAPTURE LETTER I’m not looking for an air plane ride but a plain air ride GLORY! have a great day and there are some things on your site I personally enjoy however again this doctrine is not one of them.
Hi GARY EATON! I think we agree to disagree! A lot of the things you mentioned I answered in the new radio interview I had with Simon Peterson in 2013, called “Before or After” Also the recent Road Map series parts 1 & 2 give the basic timeline structure of the endtime events! So if you want my views or what I believe concerning the Post-trib Rapture, please listen to these radio shows, especially the “Before or After” radio show!
Dear Lex, why are you so angry? It might be a good idea for you to visit websites that publish content you agree with.
You might like this one from Infowars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w32P_LuiNHo
Jones is “deceived “when it comes to religion. No wonder he has no problem with Icke and Maxwell and others spewing their spiritual evolution/ pagan Christianity garbage..
Oh, Joseph, I forgot to mention something very important in that last post on “THE LAST TRUMPET.” For years now the teaching of “pre-trib rapture” has confused TWO VERY IMPORTANT AREAS OF SCRIPTURE: The “TRIBULATION,” and The “WRATH.”
They always quote 1st Thessalonians 5:9 which states “we are not appointed unto wrath.” Since they assume the whole Book of Revelation to be “the WRATH of God,” they assume that we are not here for it. Well, the TRIBULATION, and the WRATH are TWO DIFFERENT PERIODS!
The TRIBULATION is heralded by the blowing of 7 TRUMPETS, while the WRATH is presented by the pouring out of 7 VIALS, (or some translations say “bowls”) In the verses I presented in the last message, (Revelation 11:15-18) it mentions that the blowing of the 7th and “last” trumpet ALSO signifies that “GOD’S WRATH IS NOW COME!” (In verse 18) So apparently God’s full wrath had NOT YET COME until this 7th trumpet!?
So the blowing of this “last trumpet” signifies both THE RAPTURE AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST’S FOLLOWERS, and their “time of reward,” …AND the pouring out of the “WRATH OF GOD,” which comes later on in chapter 16 of the Book of Revelation.
So He TAKES US OUT IN THE RAPTURE, and then pours out His WRATH on those “left behind.” THERE IS A “LEFT BEHIND…” The churches just have it in the wrong place! But it is for the wicked “beast-marked” people, and NOT for the more “disobedient” and “unprepared Christians” as they falsely assume in the “pre-trib” view.
This “WRATH PERIOD” comes at the blowing of the LAST TRUMPET — “AFTER” we are raptured out, and taken to the place of safety with the Lord, at the END of the tribulation period which lasts 1,260 days, or 3 1/2 years. SO WE ARE NOT APPOINTED UNTO WRATH, just as 1st Thessalonians 5:9 says!
So much of the confusion over this issue stems comes from not understanding the difference between the TWO DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS in the Book of Revelation of THE TRIBULATION, AND THE WRATH.
WE ARE NOT APPOINTED UNTO WRATH, TRUE, BUTH THE WRATH REFERED TO HERE RESULTS IN BEING TOSSED INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
Please read Revelation Chapter 16 as this chapter describes the Wrath of God. In our next Podcast we will cover the Wrath of God, how long it will be & what will happen during this period & will there be any survivors.
for all pretrib rapturist: its plain as day. in mt 24. immediately AFTER the grt trib shall jesus returns in the clouds n send his angels to the 4 quarters of the earth to pick up the saints/church or bride of christ. thats the rapture. if u disagree with is then u r disageing with Christ Himself. in revealatins 11 we have more of the same ie., the 2 christian proptes get killed 3 n a half days b4 jesus returns, also in revelations 12 we see the church getting terible persecution; the beast anticbhrist makes war on her. what do u think that is? its the grt tribulation. but the lOrd does take care of her. revealtions 8 on to chpt 12 is more detail about the grt trib. in rev11 the rapture occurs at the same time the 2 prophets are raised from dead- thery thern go to the marriage supper of the lamb while the WRATH of God is pouered out on the followers of thebeast. so aas one can see if one studies it the grt trib n the wrath of God r 2 diiffereent happenings. the grt trib is the devil being unleashed on the christians on earth and the wrath is Gods vengane taking place on the beast n his henchmen. stdy these matters n show yerself approved rightly dividing the word of God, lest you be found weiged in the balances n found wanting/lacking –peace n blesings from peru
The Lord showed me a couple of really neat things one day concerning THE RAPTURE: In Revelation 20:4-6 it speaks of many of the end time saints being “beheaded” for not taking the mark of the beast. Obviously then, they had to be around during the time of his reign for this to occur. Right? … And if you read a bit further, it says that “THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION!” HMNNN!?
If this is true, then what resurrection is it talking about back in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 (which is the “darling” and favorite verse of the Pre-Tribulational teachers, which they say IS CLEARLY SPEAKING OF THE RAPTURE…) – where it says, “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout; with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God, AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST.” (THE RESURRECTION) “Then we, which are alive and remain shall be ‘caught up’ (“raptio or raptured”) together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” ??? …ah, what resurrection is this speaking of?
If the resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6 is the “FIRST ONE,” then which one is this speaking of here in 1st Thessalonians? … the “negative” first resurrection? Are they using new math? The “negative-one” resurrection? Did they have “new math” back then? NO! CLEARLY THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE “FIRST” RESURRECTION, and there fore they must be speaking of the same exact event!
If the rapture (or raising into the air) and resurrection are one and the same event, and happen together there in 1st Thessalonians 4, THEN THEY MUST ALSO OCCUR TOGETHER IN REVELATION 20:4-6! Right? And in Revelation 20:4-6 it plainly says that the FIRST RESURRECTION DOES NOT COME UNTIL AFTER THE CRUEL RULE AND REIGN OF THE ANTICHRIST, in which many Christians are beheaded for their Faith, and for refusing to receive the mark of the Beast! Look both areas of Scripture up for yourselves and see.
Then the Lord showed me another neat revelation on all this: If you compare Matthew 24:29-31 (which is one of our favorite “Post-Trib” areas of Scripture) to 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 (which is the favorite passage of the “Pre-Trib” people) they have THREE VERY IMPORTANT IDENTICAL EVENTS THAT OCCUR IN EACH AREA OF SCRIPTURE, THAT PROVE THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME EVENT! Please look them up and read them together. These events are:
1) THE LORD RETURNS.
2) A GREAT TRUMPET IS BLOWN.
3) WE RISE IN THE AIR TO MEET THE LORD IN THE CLOUDS AND THE SKY.
So it’s obvious that these two areas of Scripture are speaking of the SAME EVENT! Matthew 24 and Mark 13 refer to it as “THE GATHERING UNTO CHRIST,” to meet Him in the sky, or “heaven.” 1st Thessalonians 4 refers to it as “rapio or raptio,” or being “caught up” into the heavens to meet the Lord in the clouds and the air. Matthew 24:29 makes it very plain that this event occurs “AFTER THE TRIBULATION PERIOD!” …NOT “BEFORE” as they falsely teach. So the early Christians referred to this event as “THE GATHERING UNTO CHRIST,” and they knew very well that it would NOT come until AFTER THE TRIBULATION PERIOD!
Satan, like a great commanding general, sat back and looked far off into time, and saw that he was going to have to come up with a NEW WORD to change the timing of this great event, and to throw people off, if he was going to catch the church off guard in the end time; so he saw how he could cleverly use the word “rapio” or “raptio.” He had to get people’s minds off the words “GATHERING UNTO CHRIST,” as it’s VERY EVIDENT where that great event occurs… IMMEDIATELY “AFTER” THE TRIBULATION! So he has tried to make it appear that these are two separate events: “The Gathering” and “The Rapture.”
He always tries to keep people’s minds OFF reading Matthew chapter 24. Some churches just absolutely “grimace” at the mention of Matthew 24, because they know they have no answers for it; so they just try to ignore it. But to the early Christians, this great coming event was clearly known as “THE GATHERING UNTO CHRIST” to meet Him in the heavens, and everyone knew that 1st Thessalonians 4 was speaking of the same event back then. Only after many generations, and twisting and “wresting” of the Scriptures by the many modern false prophets have the false notions of today emerged.
Did you know that the great saint Corrie Ten Boom spoke of this false teaching? In one of her last sermons in Portland, Oregon, she stated, “There are some among us teaching that there will be NO TRIBULATION!” “These are the “FALSE TEACHERS” that Jesus said would come in the later days!” I have a personal friend who was present there that day and heard her say this. It has also been re-printed by the late Dr. James McKeever and his wife Jeani, of Omega Ministries in one of their news letters.
Just think of all the books that have been written about Corrie Ten Boom, and the movie made about her life. NOTHING was ever mentioned about her belief on the “rapture!” Not a word! But that is what dear Corrie believed and taught.
Thanks for the comments! The verses Revelation 20:4-6 are very good to use as you brought out!
The Lord showed me another neat revelation similar to this one. As you know, 1st Corinthians 15:51 & 52 state very plainly that the resurrection and changing into our new spiritual bodies comes at the blowing of “THE LAST TRUMP,” or trumpet. Well, interestingly enough, in the Book of Revelation, if you read what occurs at the blowing of each trumpet there at “the trumpets of tribulation,” … nothing even remotely resembling “the rapture” comes at ANY of them until you get to the LAST ONE! …The final and SEVENTH TRUMPET!
When you read Revelation 11:15-18, it plainly says that “THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDS…” and then down in verse 18 it says that this represents “THE TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED, AND CHRIST’S SERVANTS REWARDED FOR THEIR MERITORIOUS SERVICE TO HIM.”
This is speaking of the RESURRECTION FOLKS! …AND THE RAPTURE! How could Christ’s servants be rewarded and judged if they are not raised from the dead? Why is it even referred to there as “THE TIME OF THE DEAD,” if it is not related somehow to the rapture and resurrection? So this is a pretty good verse to help prove that the “rapture and resurrection” come at the LAST TRUMPET, just as Paul said!
Also, early on in this passage it mentions that “THE LORD HAS RETURNED!” It says that “THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE NOW BECOME HIS!” So this is an obvious reference to His SECOND COMING as is laid out so clearly in both Matthew 24:29-31 and 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18, ALSO helping to re-enforce that this is speaking of the rapture and resurrection, which occur at this same time.
I’ve had people argue that Paul spoke of that “last trumpet” back in 1st Corinthians long before John spoke of it in Revelation 11, “so how could they be speaking of the same trumpet?” But as we know from the last chapters of the Book of John, as well as when Jesus stayed with His disciples for a full 40 days before going on to His Father’s throne, “speaking to them and teaching them of things pertaining to the “Kingdom of God,” (as it says early on in the Book of Acts) perhaps this teaching is one of those things He mentioned, and was “common knowledge” back in those days; or pehaps the Lord just “revealed” it to Paul at the time of the writing of 1st Corinthians? Who knows? BUT IT SURE FITS! So I consider it as pretty sound doctrince.
It is an actual teaching that is referred to as “LAST TRUMPET THEOLOGY,” and was taught, as you probably know, by the late Dr. James Mc Keever in his many writings on the subject.
Interestingly, Pat Robertson, of The 700 Club, believes in Post-Trib Rapture, as well as the late Demos Shakarian, who started “The Full Gospel Businessmen.” So thankfully there are a precious few speaking out against the vast majority of the Church system on this issue, along with us. PTL!
Paul had an outstanding understanding of the end time events. I think he got most of it straight from the Lord.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2. Cor 12. 1-4 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
WOW! I think you might be on to something here Lajos. That thought never crossed my mind. That may be where the Lord showed Paul these things concerning the “last trumpet.” He was taken to heaven and shown things just as John the Beloved was; perhaps just not in such great detail, or recorded in such detail anyway… This miracle of God is still happening today. We know an evangelist named Henry Gruver who was taken to heaven and walked the streets of Gold for 6 hours. He has a video out on it called “6 hours in Heaven.” He was also shown the entire coming missile war and many end time events just like John the Beloved. He is so sweet spirited and kind when you meet him, that many people refer to him as a modern “John the Beloved.” Also, last night we were watching Sid Roth on TV, and he had a man who was a former Hindu from India on who got saved, and the Lord took him to heaven and he walked the streets of Gold, and saw and HEARD the flowers singing! …as well as meeting Jesus too! I’ve heard before of “the flowers singing.” Maybe there are some among us who have had this experience. It would be neat if some would “chime in” here and share their testimonies of being taken to heaven. God bless you.